“I’m sure you don’t mean that the Bible is just like “any other literature”. Surely you treat it differently.”

Debates about how I read the Bible are a distraction from the real point – it’s message. As we’ve already discussed elsewhere we can see there is not a lot to be said about homosexuality in it’s pages. What little is said about it is, like it or not, unfavourable.

The real message, the only one that matters, is that God sent his Son to suffer for our wrong doing, so that we may all live. So all this other stuff we rattle on about, Christian or not, does not matter in the light of Christ and the forgiveness we have access to through Him.

I treat the Bible differently because of its message; elsewise it is nothing more than a book, like any other.

“I might return to your post of January 11th at some point. “

Ok. If you choose to do so that would be good.

“I’m getting quite weary, though, because if all it takes for you to oppose marriage equality is that “same gender sexual activity and effeminacy is warned against” in a very, very old book, then there’s not much more to discuss.”

Hidden in the message of that “very, very old book” is hope. Homosexual people are included in that hope, we all are.

Given your weariness of the subject I will not drag it out further.

J

I will try to make a more in depth reply next week. Have a good weekend

In my view reading of the Bible, as with any other literature, or everyday speech for that matter, is a combination of literal and figurative interpretation. It is not an ‘either/or’ choice.

I’m sure you don’t mean that the Bible is just like “any other literature”. Surely you treat it differently. Anyway…..to be honest, I don’t want to talk about the Bible any further. It bores me, as I place no greater important on it than “any other literature” of the era, most of which I suspect is at least as homophobic as the Bible. No offense.

I might return to your post of January 11th at some point. I’m getting quite weary, though, because if all it takes for you to oppose marriage equality is that “same gender sexual activity and effeminacy is warned against” in a very, very old book, then there’s not much more to discuss.

“Ah, so you interpret the Bible literally.”

In my view reading of the Bible, as with any other literature, or
everyday speech for that matter, is a combination of literal and
figurative interpretation. It is not an ‘either/or’ choice.

“I n that case, it seems I need to go back to the Bible
and find some concrete examples of strange things that are “promoted
as moral”.”

Don’t feel obliged to do that; particularly on the back of your
assertion that I have a bias toward literal reading of the Bible.
However, if you want to do it, I’d be happy to discuss your findings.

“For me to understand what you mean by “promoted as
moral”, could you please tell me the passages where you believe
same-sex marriage is “promoted as immoral”?”

No, because I don’t believe there are any such versus in scripture. To
the best of my knowledge marriage is only ever discussed in the
context of a man and his wife. Same gender sexual activity and
effeminacy is warned against. It follows, by inference, that a same
sex union in marriage is also to be avoided.

To clarify my position on this; I do not see this as making homosexual
people different to me in terms of the errors we make as humans. It is
easy for me to resist homosexuality because I have no attraction to
my gender. However I am weak in many areas of my life that many [a] homosexual
[person] people may not be. The conclusion I come to is to avoid whatever I
can, not judge those who can not, and to thank God for His grace (in
Christ) to cover me when I stuff things up – which is daily.

“…and for the record, by “marriage with slaves and
whores” I meant forced marriages.”

I have not researched this before answering you, but I can think of one
occasion (off the top of my head) where God instructed a prophet to marry a whore;
the prophet chose to obey God. If you examine the reason why God did
this it is because He was building a picture of the behaviour of the
Israelites at the time, and making a point to them about it, but also
His strong love for them. As I said, I’m no Bible scholar, and I have
not looked this up. If you want me to elaborate further I can look
into it.

I do not understand the morality issue about slaves. Perhaps there was
some rule for the Levites not to do such things – I don’t know. The
Levites were a tribe of Israel who were set aside as priests of whom
God had specific requirements under God’s Law (the Law).

What we have to remember is that the need, under the Law, to do (or
omit to do, as the case may be) what we would now look at as peculiar
types of things (e.g. animal offerings as atonement for sin) was done
away with under Christ (the new covenant). The sacrifice He made gave
us all access to the Father through a righteous advocate; Jesus. *Jesus became the atonement for
all sin, all time and all people with His death on the cross and
subsequent resurrection.

J

Edit:
* This is the ‘good news’ of the Bible!

Yes, if one did not know any better, and treated the video as accurately reflecting the Bible, one could conclude that….True enough. I don’t think we should pick and choose.

Ah, so you interpret the Bible literally. I must admit that’s somewhat unexpected. In that case, it seems I need to go back to the Bible and find some concrete examples of strange things that are “promoted as moral”. For me to understand what you mean by “promoted as moral”, could you please tell me the passages where you believe same-sex marriage is “promoted as immoral”?

(oh, and for the record, by “marriage with slaves and whores” I meant forced marriages.)

“One cannot argue that “same sex marriage is immoral” with respect to Christian morals as manifested in the Bible, without acknowledging that – by the same standards – numerous other forms of marriage ARE moral, including marriage between siblings, with slaves and whores, etc.”

I agree with the notion that double standards are no standards; I think that’s where you’re going with that?

Can you please find me in the Bible where marriage to siblings is promoted as moral? I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying it is not promoted as moral.

I think it’s worth remembering that the Bible is more than just a morality guide, it is an historical record also. King David, whom God described as “a man after His own heart” committed murder, but we don’t say that murder is moral because David did it, and God approved of David. God approved of “the sum” of David, his nature, not an act committed in exception to that.

As for marriage to slaves and whores, I would marry either one tomorrow if circumstances favoured it. Either Jesus died a death that paid the penalty for all sin, for all people, or He did not. Incidentally I don’t see being a slave as having moral connotations.

“One concludes, therefore, that the Bible is NOT a good standard by which to judge the morality of different kinds of marriage. “

Yes, if one did not know any better, and treated the video as accurately reflecting the Bible, one could conclude that.

“If we “pick and choose” which parts of the Bible to listen to, then we require some other source of moral guidance, to know which parts to pick…….”

True enough. I don’t think we should pick and choose.

J

If you want to find and summarise a point of discussion from that video that you think is worthy of inspection I’d be happy to go over it with you.

Good suggestion. So let’s focus on the following point of discussion from the video:

One cannot argue that “same sex marriage is immoral” with respect to Christian morals as manifested in the Bible, without acknowledging that – by the same standards – numerous other forms of marriage ARE moral, including marriage between siblings, with slaves and whores, etc. — See the video. One concludes, therefore, that the Bible is NOT a good standard by which to judge the morality of different kinds of marriage.

If we “pick and choose” which parts of the Bible to listen to, then we require some other source of moral guidance, to know which parts to pick…….